Jean-François Abisse En ma qualité de Président du SLAG, il est de mon devoir d'informer que parmi ces 3 bébés Aza, deux ne seraient pas confirmable en France car porteur de beaucoup trop de blanc. Cordialement.
26 janvier, 12:10
Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoCher M. Abisse, en ma qualité de propriétaire de la chienne Tigidit Ineni, je considère qu'il est de ma responsabilité de vous informer qu'à cette chienne, que vous qualifiez de "beaucoup trop de blanc", la FCI a un attribué il y a un an le titre de "Championne Internationale de Beauté".
Les juges de la FCI jugent des chiens selon des aspects cynologiques importants dans le soucis de l'exigence placée dans beaucoup de pays européens.
Les aspects concernant la santé et la morphologie sont mis en avant. La couleur d'un chien est connue pour être la moins importante en ce qui concerne sa qualité de vie.
Il serait souhaitable que les associations et leurs dirigeants en France aussi se décident enfin à initier ou à soutenir des critères et des pratiques responsables en matière d'élevage et donc à suivre la tendance inexorable vers l'élevage de chiens rationnelle implantée en Europe.
Cordialement
Petra Stammberger
Dear Mr Abisse, as the owner of the bitch Tigidit Ineni, I see it as my responsibility to clarify the following: This bitch, which has been described by you as “Beaucoup trop de blanc” (too much white), was awarded the title of "International Champion of Beauty" last year.
The FCI judges have thereby conceded to the demands made in many European countries, that dogs should be judged according to cynologically important criteria.
Health and morphology are therefore the priority.
The colour of the dog is, as we know, the least important aspect regarding quality of life.
It would be most desirable if the French clubs and their officials were to take this on ultimately, and to initiate and support responsible breeding practice and criteria. This would be in line with the trend in Europe, which is coming full force, to breed sensibly.
Cordialement
Petra Stammberger
29 janvier, 19:01 - 12 personnes aiment ça : Gabriele Meißen, Penny Karaspilios, Josephine Moosbrugger, Ludmilla Koslow, Jana Vrbacká, Franca Gallo, Mimi Cary Drake, Mathias Stévenard, Maria Blomberg, Patrizia Arwen Targhetti, Corine Lundqvist, IngeKloosGabriele Meißenhttp://www.arbeitskreis-azawakh.com/29455/34663.htmlIt would be great, if somebody could translate this into French.
it explains, that the FCI standard limitation of the extension of white markings in our breed doesn´t make any sense and is an arbitrary act of the personal taste of a minority of people influential in SLAG and FCI. Also it is proven by tons of empiric data, photos and videos that extended white markings and parti colour exists in the genetic "make up" of the breed in the region of it´s origin.
It would be a relief and would really increase the chance of a healthy survival of our breed in Europe, if the persons, who are responsible for the FCI standard would finally adapt it to the modern cynologic and genetic knowledge. Please !! Go forward NOT backwards !!
29 janvier, 20:50 - 10 personnes aiment ça : Barb Dietsch, Maria Blomberg, Jana Vrbacká, Cara Wade, Kerstin Jaskulla, Franca Gallo, Josephine Moosbrugger, Ludmilla Koslow, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoGabriele MeißenI do not speak French, unfortunately. So maybe somebody could translate my comment, so also our French friends , who do not speak English can understand...
29 janvier, 21:01
Mimi Cary DrakeCher M. Abisse:
J'écris en ma capacité de Président de Azawakh Preservation International. Si selon le standard, cet Azawakh a 'beaucoup trop de blanc', donc le standard est incorrect et doivent être modifiées, permettre toutes les couleurs pour l'Azawakh. Pourquoi? Parce que c'est la vraie condition de ces chiens dans leur pays d'origine : ils existent avec toutes les couleurs. Aux Etats-Unis, les deux A.K.C.and U.K.C. permettent toutes les couleurs pour l'Azawakh. Étudiez s'il vous plaît la statistique quant à la distribution de couleurs des Azawakh dans le pays d'origine:
Lors des missions ABIS de 1996, 1997 et 2000 Wl recensement sur les couleurs a ete fait sur 582 chiens.
251 sont fauves soit 44,84% 195 sont sables soit 33,51 % 81 sont bringes soit 13,92% (Ces couleurs sont conformes au standard.)
32 sont pie soit 4,50% 1 est bleu soit 0,17% 1 est noir soit 0,17% 9 sont creme soit 1,37% 3 sont lilas soit 0,52%
Ces couleurs ne sont pas conformes au standard et representent 6,73% de la population recensee.
Ces couleurs existent et devraient être permises.
Cordialement, Dr. Mimi Cary Drake
29 janvier, 21:16 · 12 personnes aiment ça : Kerstin Jaskulla, Franca Gallo, Cara Wade, Gabriele Meißen, Penny Karaspilios, Andrée Bouchard, Isabelle Deschamps, Mathias Stévenard, Patrizia Arwen Targhetti, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Cheryl Hale LeBlanc, Corine LundqvistMimi Cary DrakeEnglish translation of above: Dear M. Abisse:
I am writing in my capacity as president of Azawakh Preservation International. If according to the standard, this Azawakh has 'far too much white', then the standard is incorrect and must be mo...dified to permit all colours. Why? Because this is the true condition of these dogs in their country of origin: they exist in all colours. In the United States, both A.K.C. and U.K.C. permit all colours for the Azawakh. If you will please study the statistics for the distribution of colours of the Azawakh in the country of origin:
During the ABIS expeditions of 1996, 1997 and 2000 inventory on colours was taken on 582 dogs.
251 are red or 44,84%;195 are sands or 33,51%; 81 are brindle or 13,92 %. (These colours comply with standard.)
32 are piebald or 4,50%; 1 is blue or 0,17%; 1 is black or 0,17%; 9 are creme or 1,37%;
3 are lilac or 0,52%. These colours represent 6,73% of the recent population and are not permitted.
These colours do exist and must be permitted.
Cordially, Dr. Mimi Cary Drake
29 janvier, 21:22 · 11 personnes aiment ça : Ludmilla Koslow, Barb Dietsch, Jana Vrbacká, Cara Wade, Maria Blomberg, Penny Karaspilios, Josephine Moosbrugger, Becky Blenkush, Erica Kasper, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoMimi Cary DrakeDr Gabriele Meißen a écrit :
http://www.arbeitskreis-azawakh.com/29455/34663.htmlSi peut-être quelqu'un pourrait traduire mon commentaire, donc aussi nos amis français, qui ne parlent pas d'anglais peuvent comprendre...
Ce serait bon, si quelqu'un pourrait le [l'article du lien] traduire au français.
[L'article] explique, que la restriction standard FCI de l'extension de taches blanches dans notre race n'a pas de sens, et est un acte arbitraire du goût personnel d'une minorité des gens influents à SLAG et à FCI.
Aussi il est prouvé par beaucoup de données empiriques, photos et vidéos que la 'parti-couleur' et l'extension de taches blanche existe dans le code génétique de la race dans le pays d'origine.
Ce serait un relief et augmenterait vraiment la chance d'une survivance en bonne santé de notre race en Europe, si les personnes, qui sont responsables pour le standard FCI l'adapteraient finalement à cynologic moderne et la connaissance génétique. S'il vous plaît!! Avancez PAS à reculons!!
30 janvier, 04:31
Gabriele MeißenThis is the article, Christiane Thier Rostaing (Ag Amaias Azawakh) wrote about the genetics of white markings. it is worth to read and easy to undersand:
The genetic background of the white spots at azawakhs
What is spotting?
It is currently not understood which biochemical processes cause white "spotting". The assumption is that a locally limited tyrosinase deficiency might be responsible for the localized white markings.
Regardless of the base color, white is passed on by the spotting gene, so that the base color is suppressed to varying extents.
Small areas of white are dominant over large areas of white.
The white spotting gene is an autosomal, recessively inherited gene, whereas the gene for the base color is partially dominant, resulting in dogs heterozygous for white markings. The extent of the white markings displayed on a heterozygous animal varies and is defined in the color genetics of the so-called "S-series":
S = base or solid color without white markings, a completely pigmented surface, maybe a little white spot on the chest.
si = Irish spotting (various authors define the extent of the corresponding white markings in different ways):
si = white markings on the extremities, underside and throat (Little)
si = chest, paws, stomach, muzzle and tail tip (Allen)
si = white markings on the paws, chest, blaze, and ruff (Willis)
sp = piebald, more than 50% white( white cross over the coat)
sp = irregular white spotting, colored spotting ( Little )
sp= spotted, primarily white, with flecks of other colors (Willis)
sw = extreme white piebald
Agg Amaias Dahhaak, si si with minus modificators
Agg Amaias Dafiinah, si si with plus modificators
Multi Champ. Tombouktous Okalan, si si with minus modificators
The effect of each allele is influenced by the presence of other, smaller genes, the so-called ancillary or modifying genes, which can be subdivided into plus or minus modifiers. These work in conjunction with the dominant genes to further cause weaker or stronger development and extensions of white markings.
In this way genotypes which more or less create white markings frequently overlap. Assignment of a certain allele type from the S series is difficult from a purely observational standpoint and confusion in classification is practically unavoidable.
For example, S (full color) is usually dominant over the spotting gene. Therefore, Ssi will probably appear full color, nevertheless dogs with Ssp or Ssw can exhibit white markings. Dogs with sisi exhibit classical Irish spotting. However, if plus modifiers are active the dog will develop only several white markings whereas if minus modifiers are active the dog will show a marked increase in white markings.
This article covers only very briefly the large number of possible combinations of alleles from the S series, some additional influences that the modifier genes bring forth, and the resulting variations in white markings.
However, even this is enough to demonstrate how difficult, if not impossible, to influence through breeding the development of white markings in the Azawakh race.
I hope these observations also make it clear how unreasonable it is to retain the current highly restrictive and exactly defined limits of white markings on the Azawakh, especially as a criteria for judgments made in the show ring and as selection criteria for breeding.
Christiane Thier- Rostaing
Sources: Schleger, Hundezüchtung in Theorie und Praxis 1986 Burns& Fraser, Die Vererbung des Hundes 1968 M.Willis, Genetik der Hundezucht 1992,1989 Robinson 1990, Inge Hansen, Vererbung beim Hund Wegener ,Kleine Kynologie 1995 Juraschko, Populationsgenetische Untersuchung der kongenitalen Taubheit beim Dalmatiner 2000
30 janvier, 08:56 - 10 personnes aiment ça : Mimi Cary Drake, Penny Karaspilios, Max Vondermulde, Maria Blomberg, Susannah Thyni, Jana Vrbacká, Kerstin Jaskulla, Barb Dietsch, Cara Wade, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoTigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoI do not believe it is necessary to write all the comments in French. English is the most commonly used language in Europe among non-native speakers and Mr Abisse will have to deal with that, just as he has had to deal with the objectives and demands of the non-French FCI members. Although France is the patron country of the Azawakh standard, this is also valid for all other FCI member states, and they too have a strong influence on breeding. It would therefore be most negligent of Mr Abisse to ignore the non-French breeders and their forward-looking plans.
Mr Abisse, in his role as the president of SLAG will either go down in history as a functionary who, in the year 2011 did not recognize the times of change in breeding, and because of that, has set and insists upon a restrictive breed standard. In doing so, he would simply dump the overdue corrections of the standard, for the well-being of the dogs, on future-oriented generations. Alternatively, he will face up to the new ethics of breeding and decide for the well-being and health of the dogs. This would mean that he also belongs to those who already pioneer the turning-point of dog breeding.
Petra Stammberger
30 janvier, 11:22 - 5 personnes aiment ça : Tricia Churchill, Barb Dietsch, Ludmilla Koslow, Penny Karaspilios, Susannah ThyniKerstin Jaskulla It is urgently necessary to extend and adapt the Azawakh standard to the natural color distribution including white markings, in order to obtain the genetic variety - and thus health in the race.
30 janvier, 12:08 - 12 personnes aiment ça : Susannah Thyni, Ludmilla Koslow, Maria Blomberg, Mimi Cary Drake, Barb Dietsch, Penny Karaspilios, Josephine Moosbrugger, Becky Blenkush, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Patrizia Arwen Targhetti, Inge KloosGabriele Meißen But if we write several comments in French also several more of our French Azawakh friends, who do not speak English or German could follow the discussion.
30 janvier, 12:48
Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoJe pense, qu'il n'est pas nécessaire de rédiger tous les commentaires en français. L'anglais est la langue la plus répandue en Europe, monsieur Abisse devra aussi se débrouiller avec les commentaires en anglais, comme il a à le faire avec les buts et les droits des non-français-membres-de-la-FCI. La France est, certes, le pays de patronage pour le standard de l'Azawakh, mais celui-ci est aussi valable pour tous les autres pays membres de la FCI et l'élevage y est codéterminé de façon décisive. Ce serait très négligent de la part de monsieur Abisse d'ignorer les éleveurs non-français et leurs orientation futures.
Soit Monsieur Abisse entrera dans l'histoire en 2011 en tant que President du SLAG comme un fonctionnaire qui n'a pas su reconnaître les signes et les tournants dans l'élevage de chiens et a donc formulé une demande plus restrictives du standard de la race. Par cette décision, il rejetterait les corrections urgentes nécessaires au standard pour le bien des chiens pour les générations futures orientées vers la raison. Ou, il abordera la nouvelle éthique en élevage de chiens et décidera en faveur du bien et de la santé des chiens. En faisant cela il appartiendrait aux groupe des pionniers qui ont déjà entamé ce virage indispensable pour l'élevage de chiens. Petra Stammberger
30 janvier, 15:14
Inge Kloos Can't understand this discussion: isn't it more important that the dogs are sane than what c o l o u r s they have? Times are changing, we do know more about the consequences of breeding today and the rules should follow the knowledge we achieve! Therefore today in breeding restrictions of colours should not play a role, the healthfulness has to come to the fore !
30 janvier, 19:04 - 8 personnes aiment ça : Susannah Thyni, Maria Blomberg, Barb Dietsch, Penny Karaspilios, Becky Blenkush, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Gabriele MeißenChristiane Thier- RostaingLa génétique des panachures blanches chez l'Azawakhs
Qu'est-ce que la panachure blanche ?
On ne comprend actuellement pas les processus biochimiques qui causent les panachures blanches. L'hypothèse est qu'une carence en tyrosinase localement limitée peut être responsable de la panachure blanche.
Quelle que soit la couleur de base, le blanc est transmis par le gène de la panachure, de sorte que la couleur de base est supprimée sur des étendues variables.
De petites zones de blanc sont dominantes sur de grandes zones de blanc.
Le gène de la panachure est un gène autosomique, hérité de façon récessive, tandis que le gène de la couleur de base est partiellement dominant, ce qui engendre des chiens hétérozygotes pour les panachures blanches. L'étendue des plages blanches affichées sur un animal hétérozygote est variable et est définie dans la génétique de la couleur par ce que l'on appelle "la série S":
S = couleur de base, ou une couleur unie, sans marques blanches, une surface complètement pigmentées, peut-être une petite tache blanche sur la poitrine.
si = panachure irlandaise (divers auteurs définissent l'étendue de blancs de manières différentes):
si = marques blanches aux extrémités, dessous et à la gorge (Little)
si = poitrine, pattes, ventre, museau et la bout de la queue (Allen)
si = marques blanches sur les pattes, la poitrine, liste, et collier (Willis)
sp = pie, plus de 50% de blanc (croix blanche sur la robe)
sp = marques blanches irrégulière, taches de couleur (Little)
sp = tacheté, principalement blanc, avec des taches d'autres couleurs (Willis)
sw = pie extrême
Agg Amaias Dahhaak, si si avec des modificateurs mineurs
Agg Amaias Dafiinah, si si avec des modificateurs majeurs
Multi Champ. Tombouktous Okalan, si si avec des modificateurs mineurs
L'effet de chaque allèle est influencé par la présence d'autres, plus petits gènes, les gènes dits auxiliaires ou modificateurs, qui peuvent être subdivisés en modificateurs majeurs ou modificateurs mineurs. Ceux-ci agissent conjointement avec les gènes dominants et conduisent à un développement plus faible ou plus fort de l'extensions des marques blanches.
Il en résulte que les génotypes qui créent plus ou moins de marques blanches se recoupent souvent. L'affectation d'un certain type d'allèle de la série S est difficile à partir d'un point de vue purement de l'observation et une confusion dans la classification est pratiquement inévitable.
Par exemple, S (unicolore) est généralement dominant sur le gène de la panachure. Par conséquent, Ssi paraîtra sans doute unicolore, mais néanmoins des chiens Ssp ou Ssw peuvent présenter des marques blanches. Les chiens sisi présentent des panachures irlandaises classiques. Toutefois, si des modificateurs majeurs sont actifs le chien ne développera que quelques marques blanches alors que si des modificateurs mineurs sont actifs le chien affichera une augmentation marquée d'étendues blanches.
Cet article ne couvre que très sommairement le grand nombre de combinaisons possibles d'allèles de la série S, certaines autres influences qu'apportent les gènes modificateurs, et les variations de marques blanches résultantes.
Cependant, même ceci est suffisant pour démontrer la difficulté, voire l'impossibilité, d'influencer à travers la sélection l'étendue des marques blanches chez l'Azawakh.
J'espère que ces observations démontrent aussi clairement pourquoi il est déraisonnable de conserver les limites actuelles très restrictives, et très précisément définies, des panachures blanches chez l'Azawakh, en particulier en tant que critères de jugements rendus dans les rings et en tant que critères de sélection pour la reproduction.
Christiane Thier- Rostaing
30 janvier, 20:41 - 8 personnes aiment ça : Guy Dupraz, Isabelle Deschamps, Penny Karaspilios, Max Vondermulde, Mimi Cary Drake, Gabriele Meißen, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Corine LundqvistBarb DietschI am not a geneticist, but even I understand the dangers of inbreeding and selecting based on coat color. I wholly disagree with Mr. Abisse in his opinion of the color standard for the Azawakh. Several expeditions to Africa and the thorou...gh surveys of the Azawakh in their natural environment should dispel any notion of confining the breed to a standard of color. To do so would bottleneck the genetic diversity in the breed. I would encourage Mr. Abisse to read the literature, and perhaps take a trip to Africa, to study the genetic diversity of the breed.
31 janvier, 19:04 - 12 personnes aiment ça : Ludmilla Koslow, Susannah Thyni, Guy Dupraz, Maria Blomberg, Josephine Moosbrugger, Gabriele Meißen, Mimi Cary Drake, Penny Karaspilios, Becky Blenkush, Patrizia Arwen Targhetti, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoJess RuffnerThe practice of breeding to a narrow standard of perfection (which, in the case of the Azawakh, is not based on the animal as it exists in the countries of origin) is NOT sustainable in the long term. Such practices mean that only a very sm...all number of animals are considered breeding quality, and removes a substantial number of animals from the gene pool, resulting in irreversible gene loss, like it or not. The livestock people, who actually depend on their animals for their lively-hood, learned this a long time ago, and so has the wild animal conservation community, people striving to prevent the extinction of certain species.It's not a credit to the dog world that there are so many people within that community that deny the science on closed gene pools. Dogs are not magically immune to the effects of inbreeding and closed gene pools, however much certain individuals would like them to be. Let's all join the twenty-first century, shall we, and stop making the rest of the animal breeding world look at dog breeders like they're a bunch of morons.
31 janvier, 23:26 - 11 personnes aiment ça : Franca Gallo, Susannah Thyni, Guy Dupraz, Maria Blomberg, Josephine Moosbrugger, Gabriele Meißen, Penny Karaspilios, Becky Blenkush, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Barb DietschMárton Mányai1, there is a saying: a good sighthound/ horse has no colour. That speaks for performance, that is overwriting the importance colour.
2, Another aspect is, that I think the azawakh breed cannot really afford itself to exclude otherwise good specimens from the breeding, and to lose it from its genetic pool.
3, And if such colours exist in their original terrain, than it is more then self-explainatory, that it should be allowed here in the "sophisticated" west as well.
1 février, 12:29 - 7 personnes aiment ça : Susannah Thyni, Maria Blomberg, Penny Karaspilios, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Barb Dietsch,Mimi Cary DrakeElisabeth NaumannSLAG is one of thr last resorts for believers in the "Dogdom-Philosophy" of the 19th and 20th centuries. These people are far away from the cynologic insights of contemporary genetic research and from any interest in the preservation of authentic dog breeds. They represent a selfsufficient bureaucratic system. I doubt that Monsieur Abisse is willing to engage in a discussion about the rationality of his directive as to the "acceptance" of Azawakhs according to colour details. So what! SLAG may proceed on its course towards cynologic absurdity. Azawakh friends outside of France will follow their own ways in the interest of the breed.
1 février, 14:53 - 10 personnes aiment ça : Guy Dupraz, Gabriele Meißen, Susannah Thyni, Maria Blomberg, Penny Karaspilios, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Barb Dietsch, Mimi Cary Drake, Max VondermuldeCorine LundqvistThe SLAG board did recognize, for the first time, this summer at the general assembly, that many other colors, paterns and markings are existing in the breed, but they stated that they do not want to change what they decided first when creating the firsts standards, even if it was randomly restrictive. They said they choose instead to keep "pure" the type and color of dogs from a unique and very small area/population (but the white amount variations existing in this area is up to the tuaregs, SLAG board doesn't like it, and do not want it). Those are the only so called Azawakhs, they said ! All the other dogs are not Azawakhs but other so-called sahelian sighthounds or bastards. They said that if people want these other colors and patterns, they should create a new standard for another breed !
So what can we expect from the SLAG board as they are not giving a democratic chance to talk or decide about it and have the full power regarding the standard ???
1 février, 19:30
Mimi Cary DrakeDr. Helmut Raiser had to take legal action in Germany against the SV in a similar situation to protect the working traits of the German Shepherd Dogs. He won, and then started a new organization, Schäferhundverein RSV2000 e.V.,
http://rsv2000.de/, which is now very successful. If SLAG is going to be stupid about this, then perhaps it is time to step 'outside the box' to take a look at our options. Perhaps we will re-discover that the sky is the limit and something new can be done, and it is not too far away in the horizon. It is within our reach to be accomplished. However, we do need strong leadership to unify us.
1 février, 20:58
Guy Dupraz@ Tigidit Kennel :
QUOTE: "Je pense, il n'est pas nécessaire de rédiger tous les commentaires en français"
It really seemed to me useful to translate this discussion AT LEAST in french, english and german languages ...
But this is a real hard work ! SO - may be - anyone can follow this discussion by using web translators and after that, can post here using her own language !
1 février, 21:26
Karin Anderwert I can't understand this discussion! What can be more important as the health of the dogs??? THE COLOR??? I'm horrified about this thought!!!
1 février, 21:55
Mathias StévenardMr Abisse, en qualité de propriétaire et fervent défenseur de la race, je ne suis ni docteur, ni éleveur, en revanche j'ai des yeux, je m'en sers et je sais lire. Je qualifierais vos raisonnement de « gaulois », bien mal appropriés pour un ...chien Africain! Il est évident et vérifié que l'Azawakh possède de multiples robes. Nier l'évidence ne fait que vous desservir, ce qui ne me dérange guère, mais quand il est question du respect de la race, du chien superbe qu'il est, je m'insurge ! Il est du devoir de chacun de veiller à faire évoluer ces standards restrictifs qui ne font qu'appauvrir la race au risque de la faire disparaître en Europe ! L'Azawakh existe depuis des centaines d'années, et il continuera d'exister bien après vous et ceci malgré votre volonté de défendre un discours situé bien en dessous des plaines « abyssales »
Je trouve votre pensée et vos points de vues « fascisant », indigne des fonctions que vous occupez. Libre à vous de créer votre race, vous l'appellerez d'ailleurs comme vous voudrez, mais les chiens sont un patrimoine transmis par nos ainés qu'il faut protéger tout comme notre environnement car ils sont notre histoire, et sans histoire nous ne sommes pas...
« Il y a deux histoires : l'histoire officielle, menteuse, puis l'histoire secrète où sont les véritables causes des événements ». Honoré de Balzac.
2 février 2011, à 00:27 - 7 personnes aiment ça : Guy Dupraz, Isabelle Deschamps, Maria Blomberg, Penny Karaspilios, Corine Lundqvist, Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicenco, Mimi Cary DrakeTigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco IbicencoThank you, Corine, for your explanation. The SLAG´s concept and position is much more transparent right now. Let´s follow their theses: There was a very small population of some unique dogs living with the Tuareg in a quite isolated area. Those dogs were named Azawakhs. Some dogs of this very small population were brought to Europe some decades ago.
The argumentation of the SLAG against recently imported dogs is, that you cannot find any more "pure" Azawakhs in Africa, the former very small population already became extinct. This sounds logical: It happens often in wildlife that isolated very small populations have no chance to survive, since there is a irreversible gene loss. At a certain level of inbreeding depression the group instinctively avoids to beget offspring e.g. Artificial insemination was for sure not an alternative for the Tuareg.
So far, so good...
If we continue to follow the SLAG´s argumentation, there is only one logical implication: The "european relocated pure Azawakhs", which originally came from the same very small population in Africa, will too be extinct, as long as they were ever kept "purebred". They come from the same group and will have the same irreversible gene loss.
Otherwise there is an alternative and the SLAG could be wrong. As it is generally known, there were recently dogs brought from Africa, who are not less successfull in showrings than their european bred "competitors". Those dogs have obviously the same phenotype as the offspring of the former "european relocated pure Azawakhs".
We all know about the danger of inbreeding depression. Who tells us that the Tuareg were not wise enough to have the same knowledge or even intuition. Recently imported dogs have the same character as the european offspring: They are guardians and hunters. What, if the Tuareg wanted to preserve their precious and useful companion and started outcross matings to prevent inbreeding depression ? What, if this evolution is part of the dog´s history ?
Should the SLAG avail itself only with the Tuareg´s dogs or also with their intelligence ? Who will be wiser at the very end...
Petra Stammberger
2 février 2011, à 02:16
Silke Steinmöller It is sad and frustrating that still people exist, that are of the opinion that breeding for a certain colour is the most important fact. It should be clear that the focus has to be on health. Even so not an Azawakh owner, I follow this trend on 'colour-breeding' with horror! No breed has ever gained anything from these kind of restrictions in breeding material. One should think that people have learned from earlier mistakes.
2 février 2011, à 14:33
Helge Wenger What is with brindle ? Does the SLAG still intent to accept brindle in their "future plans" ? As far as I know there was no brindle in the first foundation dogs. It sounds to me that they want to turn back history, what a big desaster for the breed!
3 février 2011, à 12:10
Tigidit kennel Azawakh & Podenco Ibicencothis is the text published by the SLAG concerning the standard precision:
Pour une précision du standard du LÉVRIER DE L’AZAWAKH
Depuis la première version du standard du lévrier touareg (Oska) en 1973 jusqu’aux récentes modifications de celui du Lévrier de l’Azawakh – c’est le même chien - de nombreuses imprécisions et erreurs ont été transmises et diffusées, allant jusqu’à permettre la confusion avec d’autres types de chiens (dits lévriers) du Sahel.
En vue de mettre un terme à la dérive de quelques élevages il est urgent de reprendre et de réviser la rédaction de ce standard. Ce travail est actuellement mené conjointement auprès des premiers rédacteurs du standard, des éleveurs de la race et de personnes ayant une compétence en zootechnie et en génétique. Après l’approbation de notre comité il pourra être communiqué à la commission des standards de la FCI.
Dans un premier temps, et à la demande de la SCC, la liste des points de non-confirmation (défauts éliminatoires) a été précisée. La voici :
Défauts éliminatoires du lévrier de l’Azawakh :
1. Tenant à l’expression générale :
* manque de type, en particulier traduisant un croisement avec une autre race,
* niveau des hanches plus bas que celui du garrot,
* tête lourde,
* fouet épais et poilu, parfois très enroulé,
* déformation anatomique non accidentelle,
* prognathisme inférieur ou supérieur.
2. Tenant à la couleur :
* robe non conforme : blanc envahissant (vers la robe-pie), collier blanc, bringeure autre que noire,
* truffe non noire, muqueuse autre que noire,
* poil dur ou demi-long,
* œil pâle dit d’oiseau de proie, ou œil bleu,
3. Autres traits :
* taille s’écartant de plus de 3cm des normes du standard,
* monorchidie et cryptorchidie.
and this is the english translation of
www.group-azawakh.org:For a precision of the standard of the sighthound of the AZAWAKH
Since the first version of the standard of the Tuareg sighthound (Oska) in 1973 until the recent modifications of the Azawakh sighthound - it is the same dog - numerous inaccuracies and errors were passed on and spread, going as far as allowing the confusion with other types of dogs (said sighthounds) from the Sahel.
To put an end adrift of some breeders it is urgent to to take back and to revise the writing of this standard. This work is at present led collectively with the first writers of the standard, the breeders of the breed and with the persons having a skill in breeding this breed and in genetics. After the approval of our committee it can be communicated to the commission of the standards of the FCI.
At first, and at the request of the SCC, the list of the points of eliminating faults (for France only : "non-confirmation" points) was specified. Here it is:
Eliminating faults of the Azawakh Sighthound :
1. Regarding general expression:
* Lack of type (in particular when showing a recent crossing with another breed),
* Hipbones placed distinctly lower than the withers,
* heavy head,
* Thick and hairy tail, sometimes very rolled up,
* Disabling anomaly - not acquired,
* Upper or lower prognathism.
2. Regarding the colour:
* Coat not conforming to the standard : intrusive white markings (tending to parti-colour), white collar, brindling other than black,
* nose not black, mucous membranes other than black,
* Harsh or semi-long coat,
* Light eye i.e. bird of prey eyes.
3. Other :
* Size out by more than 3 cm from the standard measures,
* monorchidism et cryptorchidism.Afficher la suite
3 février 2011, à 23:38
Mimi Cary Drake << Ce travail est actuellement mené conjointement auprès des premiers rédacteurs du standard, des éleveurs de la race et de personnes ayant une compétence en zootechnie et en génétique.>>
Quels sont leurs noms, ces 'experts' ?
4 février 2011, à 08:41
Mimi Cary Drake << This work is at present led collectively with the first writers of the standard, the breeders of the breed and with the persons having a skill in breeding this breed and in genetics.>>
What are their names, these 'experts'?
4 février 2011, à 08:43
Corine Lundqvist That's the good question !!!
Gervais COPPÉ is the conductor. What he's doing, and with whom, is "secret"... in the name of the board of course !
4 février 2011, à 12:54
Jess Ruffner If they're talking to 'experts in genetics' they'll know how idiotic their problems with 'too much' white are, won't they?
4 février 2011, à 17:45
Mimi Cary DrakeQui est un ami de Gervais Coppé? Il est à FB, il a 23 amis. Couleur est superficielle, c'est simplement cosmétique. Cette obsession de la couleur est absurde. L'obsession de Azawakh tout-blanc, est tout aussi absurde comme l'obsession de la restriction de blanc.
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Who is a friend of Gervais Coppé? He is on FB with 23 friends. Color is superficial, it is merely cosmetic. This obsession with color is absurd. The obsession with the all-white Azawakh, is equally absurd as the obsession with restricting white.
5 février 2011, à 07:44
Elisabeth NaumannThese are altogether very plausible arguments and they could be continued at length. But I am pretty sure that Mr.Abisse and friends will not take the trouble to engage in a public discussion. The arrogance of the SLAG "experts" is proverbial. So, what is going to happen? They will present their new Azawakh Standard to the FCI in the name of the French Canine Federation SCC, and the latter is known to act as a mouthpiece of SLAG in regard to Azawakh matters. According to the unfortunate FCI constitution, the SCC is the "owner" of the Azawakh Standard with the privilege to change it ad libidum. Only way to stop the scheme would be a majority vote of SLAG’s General Assembly. This is unrealstic, last but not least because of the small Azawakh fraction within the SLAG membership of eight other breeds. New organisational concepts are in order to protect the Azawakhs in FCI-member states all over the world against the arbitrary Standard regime of the French "patrons".
5 février 2011, à 09:39
Jana VrbackáWell, SLAG and any other club representatives should, first and foremost, abide by the FCI strategies,and the standard should also be in compliance with the FCI general policy. Unfortunatelly, this is something I really cannot see in their approach towards the Azawakh as a breed. Just when you read the following introduction, it mentions terms like: genetics, health, knowledge, education, no strict breeding regulations and stringent demands in breeding programmes, no decrease in genetic diversity... But the reality, as seen from the perspective of an Azawakh owner, is just the opposite!
FCI INTERNATIONAL BREEDING STRATEGIES
1. Introduction
The goal in dog breeding is functionally healthy dogs with a construction and mentality typical to the breed, dogs that can live a long and happy life for the benefit and pleasure of the owner and the society as well as the dog itself. Breeding should be carried out in such a manner that it promotes the health and well-being of the progeny, as well as the welfare of the bitch. Knowledge, honesty and cooperation, both on national and international level, is basic in healthy dog breeding. Breeders should be encouraged to emphasize the importance of the combination of dogs as well as selection of the individual dog to be used for breeding. The FCI members and contract partners should conduct education programmes for breeders,preferably on an annual basis. Education of breeders is to be recommended rather than strict breeding regulations and stringent demands in breeding programmes, which can easily result in reduced genetic diversity in the breed as well as exclusion of excellent breed representatives and reduced cooperation with conscientious breeders. Breeders and breed clubs should be encouraged to cooperate with scientists in genetic health issues, to prevent combination of dogs from lines that will result in unhealthy offspring.Afficher la suite
5 février 2011
Mimi Cary DrakeElizabeth Naumann hat geschrieben/a écrit/wrote: "New organisational concepts are in order to protect the Azawakhs in FCI-member states all over the world against the arbitrary Standard regime of the French "patrons"."
Das ist die Richtung, die wir vorwärtstreiben müssen. C'est la direction nous devons avancer. This is the direction we must move forward.
5 février 2011
Guy Dupraz Au cours de la dernière Assemblée générale du SLAG de juin 2010, nous étions environ 20 membres présents. Des questions de plusieurs membres (au moins trois), ont évoqué le problèmes des couleurs, particulièrement le blanc, mais d'autres couleurs aussi, dans le standard actuel (je ne parle pas même du futur standard ...) et la réponse du Comité a été très claire :
° "Le standard est l'affaire de Comité du SLAG et il est sous sa seule responsabilité - Les membres n'ont rien à dire là-dessus ! Les membres nous ont élus pour cela ..."
C'est ce qui nous été répondu.
... SANS COMMENTAIRE .....
5 février 2011
Guy Dupraz
During the last general Assembly of the SLAG in June 2010, there were about 20 members present. Questions from some members (at least three), discussed the problems of color, especially white, but other colors too, in the current standard (...I'm not speaking about the probable next standard ...) and the answer of Board was very clear:
° "The standard is a matter of SLAG Board and is his sole responsibility - Members have nothing to discuss about that ! They elected us for that ..."
That's what we were told.
... NO COMMENT .....
5 février 2011
Barb DietschDo you have to be a French citizen to join SLAG ?
8 février 2011
Guy DuprazNo need to be to be french to be a SLAG member. But, Need to be french to be a board member, until now !
I'm from Switzerland, living in France and a member.
8 février 2011
Mimi Cary DrakeBarb
- As Elizabeth Naumann wrote a few days ago, new organization concepts
are in order. Joining SLAG is not one these new concepts !
8 février 2011
Guy Dupraz
@ Mimi : I just given an explanation to the Barbs question ... NOTHING ELSE ... to be clear !
8 février 2011